“We give the best prisoners to the army”. Interview with Deputy Minister of Justice on mobilization of convicts

In May, a law on the right of convicts to mobilize came into force in Ukraine, and within a few weeks, more than 600 prisoners joined the Armed Forces.

In total, more than 4,000 people want to change their prison uniforms to military ones. Their applications must be considered in court. Before that, the volunteer prisoners undergo an examination, a military medical commission, and an introduction to their commanders.

Does this policy justify itself? How risky is it? How does it differ from the notorious Russian practice? How does the selection and vetting system work?

We talked to Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice, who oversees the penitentiary system, about how the idea of mobilizing prisoners went from complete rejection to adoption in parliament.

Is the number of prisoners willing to join the armed forces increasing? What mobilization resource has the new law opened up?

We have already received more than 4,000 applications. IThere will likely e about 4.5 thousand. At least, when we surveyed in April, that was the number of people willing to apply. However, some of these people are not eligible under the articles of the Criminal Code ,or for health reasons — they will not be able to take advantage of this opportunity.

There are also some people who did not plan to do this before, but now they see that it is real, and they also express their desire.

In total, we have over 26 thousand convicts. But all of them cannot be considered a reserve, because according to this law, one can join the Armed Forces only if they want to. The mobilization potential is also represented by 50 thousand people who have already served their sentences. Previously, the law restricted their mobilization, but now this outdated Soviet norm has been removed.

Over 600 prisoners have already been released in the first weeks. Does the court consider such requests so quickly?

Yes, it's fast, because we are motivated, the convicts are motivated, and the military commanders are motivated. The territorial recruitment centers understand that this is an important job. That is why this law is being successfully implemented. Quickly and successfully.

It is known that only those convicted of Those convicted of premeditated murder, rape, sexual violence, crimes against national security, and serious corruption offenses will not be mobilizedminor crimes have the right to be mobilized. Do you already know which articles prisoners are most likely to want to serve?

All of them. In fact, we are talking about large teams of 500-600 people in one institution. You would like such details... Do you think we are doing this? No, we don't. We have a lot of other work to do to implement this project.

Could you tell us in detail how this process works procedurally: from the convict's application to the inspection, medical examination, meeting with the commanders, and the court decision?

After the application is written, the institution’s administration checks the relevance of the case file of a particular convict — whether there is an exception under the article. And they refuse those who cannot participate in this procedure according to the law. This is the first check.

Then we provide a preliminary medical report. If there are diagnoses incompatible with service, we immediately inform them so that the Military Medical Commission does not have to do extra work.

Then the commanders of the military units get acquainted with the convicts. They already give their consent or disagreement to take this or that person to the unit. Their option is important. Because if they or the military medical commission refuse, the person does not get further.

After the military medical commission and these meetings, a commission under the administration works, which includes commanders and the territorial recruitment office. It can be held physically or online, and the preliminary consent of the administration is formed there. Then the materials on each convict are sent to the court, and from there we wait for a decision.

How thoroughly is the additional check and examination of the convicted person conducted — are the psychological state, behavior in prison, and ability to perform combat missions analyzed?

There are rules for passing the military medical commission. They come to our colonies on a general basis and do their job. I cannot comment on this. We only have to provide a preliminary medical analysis. This is information from the convict's medical record, we do not examine them separately to determine their defense capacity. If there are no problems at this stage, representatives of the military unit come.

The commander tells what his unit is doing. The convicts, in turn, tell about themselves: what they have done, what their experience is, what their current motivation is, and so on. Here, the two sides are cautiously looking at each other. Then the commanders either agree and offer the people to their unit or refuse.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

How often does the mobilization process fail?

It's too early to say. We are still working on it. Obviously, there are refusals at different stages. Either the convicted person's article does not comply with the law, or the military medical commission objectively says that the person will not be able to serve for health reasons. Commanders can also decide that a person will be a nuisance or do more harm than good.

All of this is happening all over the country with different military units, with different institutions. It is very subjective — it depends on each specific case. Therefore, it is impossible to demand any clear statistics from us...

I will have to travel around the country with you and accompany each of the four thousand convicts to each hearing to understand what the reasons for the refusal were in this or that case.

What if, for example, the military medical commission gives its consent, but the commander does not like the person? What then?

If we fail to find a unit the first time, we can start further negotiations. The Ministry of Defense has identified a large number of units that cooperate with us — several dozen of them, so this is not a problem. However, the consent of the commander is required by law. As long as it is absent, the person remains a prisoner.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

In general, the law is very clear in the procedure, with few possible deviations. If there is no voluntary application or if one of the participants doubts such voluntariness, for example, the court, then there will be a refusal. And the person will continue to serve their sentence.

Where will the mobilized prisoners serve? According to the minister, they will be formed into separate squads in assault units that will not be mixed with others. Doesn't this sound like Russian practice?

The Ministry of Defense determines where these people will serve and whether they will hold weapons at all. This is not our competence. In my opinion, it would be advisable to combine them with those who already have combat experience.

On the one hand, we accepted the challenge not to repeat the mistakes and undemocratic approaches of Russia. On the other hand, we should not have allowed the convicts to serve in the rear units, replacing their punishment with freedom.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

Behind this system are a large number of victims and their families who want justice. Therefore, it had to be a compromise decision: not to lean towards the so-called These are the "Storm Z" units used by Russia for offensives that provide an advantage in numbers rather than combat skills, better positions, etc.“meat” units that Russia is creating. On the other hand, it is impossible to replace the punishment of people who have committed a crime with service in easy conditions or bureaucratic work in the army.

This draft law caused considerable debate. How long did they last and how did you manage to agree on a solution?

We went through all the stages: from the complete rejection of this idea in 2022 to its successful implementation now. It was hard. Initially, any idea was compared to Russian practices, to Wagner and Prigozhin. We were flatly rejected. For 2 years, convicts have been contacting us, and writing applications.

We could not help the convicts who wanted to join the defense forces. We did not have an appropriate procedure. We were bombarded with thousands of applications from the first day of the invasion. Look at the pictures the convicts paint. They are very patriotic in fact.

No matter what anyone says, the idea turned out to be successful.

Look, the commanders send me videos of their former prisoners going through their drills. The message: “All prisoners from the Eastern Penitentiary Service are highly motivated.” They are currently undergoing training. They are training with other military. They do not train separately as convicts.

Who among those who had concerns two years ago, saying that this was a shirking of responsibility, can repeat it now? What other structure today can provide 4,000 people motivated to serve? We have finally come to this point — let's recognize that this is a successful project.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

In other words, this idea matured in the parliament only when there was a shortage of people at the front.

Of course. So the time came when we were supported by MPs. But it was also a terrible discussion — about every article, every exception... The conviction that it would ultimately be a great help to the army helped. So we spent six months selecting the articles of convicts allowed for mobilization.

What was the biggest concern of the MPs?

Murders. Although murderers, by the way, are not always dangerous convicts. They can be quite adequate, but the circumstances vary.

Every year, 10,000 people are released from prisons when their sentences expire. And yesterday's convicts also return to society. Let's look at this in an adult way — we can work with convicts. We use modern tools in risk assessment and the work of psychologists. People can be reformed if we work with them properly.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

Were you in favor of giving people who committed murder the opportunity to write an application?

In principle, we were in favor of not restricting by the article. We wanted this issue to be decided by the commanders during the meeting. As a society, we have little control here, because sooner or later a person will be released anyway. We were in favor of this being decided on a more individual basis but for our risk assessment to work.

What should this risk assessment look like?

Every six months, all convicts are subject to an assessment of the risk of reoffending. This is our mandatory procedure.

The risk assessment helps to draw up an individual plan for the convict: how the person will go through the correctional process in prison. Maybe they have certain psychological problems. You can teach them to restrain aggression. Or, say, help them understand how to build relationships with others.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

This assessment is carried out by an inspector of social and educational work and a psychologist. There is a methodology: what are the risks; and what factors should be eliminated to reduce these risks? This is an important tool in our work, and we share it in this procedure.

Are you afraid that some incidents might discredit this idea? Someone's inappropriate behavior or mass escapes, for example.

We give away the best convicts. The best ones. And we will remain with those who have mostly committed more serious crimes. After we implement this law, it will be much more difficult for us as a system to work with those who are not patriotic, not motivated, and ignore cooperation with the administration. But this is our conscious decision to help at this time.

Many people do not believe in people, but I do. 4,000 people is a lot, they are all different. Someone will fail, and someone will become a negative example. And not all of our filters, checks, and court decisions guarantee one hundred percent success. Ordinary people also escape… But in general, we see highly motivated people who are ready to learn and help others.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

So you don't see any risks or dangers?

That the convicts will be free? No, they won't. Sooner or later, all of them will be released — if not today, then tomorrow. Although no one is releasing them right now. It is also important to understand that these people have to work for the state for a certain period, and the contract is signed until the end of martial law.

The convicts who are going to serve now are doing so in a controlled manner — after a check, under the law. They will prepare and perform important work for our state.

There is a lot of work at the front, not necessarily with weapons. But even if it is with weapons, I already have a successful case: I received information that some of the first convicts captured a Russian.

The practice of mobilizing prisoners in Russia has always been ridiculed in Ukraine. Doesn't this topic now carry the same reputational risk for us? Won't it become an argument for Russian propaganda?

As for Russian propaganda, it is dangerous that it will work in this direction. In any case, there will be something bad on their part, but we have to be careful in our communication. For now, we are refraining from even allowing journalists to visit our institutions, as we understand that it can be dangerous.

We differ from the Russians primarily in that our convicts are legally protected. First, we developed a legal structure by which they will gain their freedom — parole. That is, after serving their sentence, they will not return to prison unless they commit other crimes.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

At the same time, former prisoners are additionally liable for contract evasion. The law provides for imprisonment of up to 10 years, which is a very high sanction. It will protect us from cases that could discredit the initiative.

The first document we start working with is an application from the convict himself. That is, the commanders do not come to agitate to serve. Commanders come to those who have already agreed to serve — to choose a unit, direction, or qualification.

We do not force a convict to the front. Such a person has expressed a desire to do so, and only after that do we start working with them, providing them with absolutely all guarantees.

There are restrictions: former convicts are not allowed to take a vacation. And the fact that she will serve until the end of martial law. And when it ends, he will be a completely free person.

How do our Western partners perceive this practice? Do they understand this difference from what Russia is doing?

We show them that our law is publicly available. We also comment a lot on foreign publications, emphasizing the differences with what is done in the aggressor country.

The world had no such experience at all. We were the first to make such a procedure civilized and solve such a complex problem. It was a puzzle, and we solved it. There was only the inhuman experience of Russia with Prigozhin and “meat storms”. We have taken a completely different path: we involve convicts who are already motivated and not socially dangerous.Olena Vysotska, Deputy Minister of Justice

That is why I am calm. I know that I am giving the best people to the Defense Forces. This will make it harder for me to work because the worst ones remain. But I am sure it will help the military.