"My great-grandfather was killed just as Russians kill civilians in Ukraine now." Interview with Canada’s ambassador

hromadske: You have many ties to Ukraine: your parents were born here. How did you react when the full-scale war broke out?

Natalka Cmoc: It was a painful blow. My grandparents and parents are all from Ukraine. My father was born in a spa town in Lviv OblastTruskavets. My grandparents left Ukraine around 1946 to escape the Soviet occupation.

My maternal great-grandfather was killed in a very similar way to how the Russians killed civilians in Ukraine during the full-scale invasion. He was a school principal. And the Soviet troops came in and grabbed the leaders of each community. My great-grandfather was tortured and then killed. This is how they tried to subdue Ukrainians, to intimidate them.

And we see that the Russians are doing the same thing in Ukraine again, using the same tactics. Whether it is the Holodomor policy or a full-scale invasion, these are familiar methods that Russia has been using against Ukrainians for years. History is repeating itself. But Ukrainians are putting up a fierce fight. And I am not surprised. Perhaps because I have Ukrainian roots myself.

What do you think is the secret of the Ukrainian resistance?

NC: It's incredible how quickly Ukrainians managed to organize territorial defense. Ordinary people came together and defended their communities. And it certainly surprised the whole world. But I know that Ukrainians have always fought back, so I expected it.

When I was working at the embassy in 2013, I traveled a lot in Ukraine. Before I became Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine, I was part of the embassy team for more than 13 years. I was involved in the democracy and human rights program that Canada was developing here. I was also involved in the security cooperation program between our countries when Russia annexed Crimea. At that time, we focused on helping Ukraine strengthen cybersecurity and media support.

I traveled to Luhansk and Donetsk and met with media representatives. Although I was told that it was a Russian-speaking community, I saw a slightly different reality. I met people there who spoke perfect Ukrainian. In every corner of Ukraine, I always met Ukrainians who spoke Ukrainian and were proud of their history and heritage.

In my opinion, it's not even about the language. I have never met anyone here who wants Ukraine to be part of Russia. People living in Ukraine are defending their values. They are fighting for their rights and freedom. They do not want to live in the authoritarian world that Russia brings.

If the US stops supporting Ukraine, will Canada continue to help us?

Canada has made it very clear that it stands by Ukraine. We will continue to provide this support. It's not just the government. Numerous Canadian organizations are constantly coming here.

Recently, I was traveling by train from Warsaw to Lviv. There was a woman from Toronto in the compartment with me. At her birthday party, she raised funds, bought equipment and drones, which she delivered to one of the Ukrainian brigades. Yes, she does have Ukrainian roots. But she could have spent her money and spent her vacation elsewhere.

We see this war not only as a confrontation between Russia and Ukraine. For Canadians, this is a war with global implications: Ukraine's security affects our security.

Ukraine has always fought for its democracy and rights. And as a country that shares these values, Canada insists that Ukraine has the right to self-determination. So our support is unwavering.

Canada was one of the first countries to recognize Ukraine's independence in 1991. How do you see future relations between Ukraine and Canada?

Canada was the second country in the world and the first outside of Europe after Poland to recognize Ukraine's independence.

About 4% of Canadians have Ukrainian roots, which is about 1.5 million people in a country of 38 million. This is a fairly powerful diaspora.

While the Canadian government is already very supportive of Ukraine, Canadians of Ukrainian descent are also influential in keeping that support strong by advising the government on how to improve relations between our countries.

Canada is a country of immigrants who have moved from all over the world. Many people come to Canada to escape persecution. They are usually used to fighting for their rights. That's why there is a strong sense of justice among all Canadians and a consensus to support Ukraine. 

Last month, a powerful government delegation from Canada visited Ukraine. The Speaker of the House of Commons, Greg Fergus, assured the Ukrainian parliament from the rostrum that Ukraine has the support of all our parties.

Canada is currently helping Ukraine in all areas, from humanitarian to military. Since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, it has spent approximately $20 billion to support Ukraine.

In your opinion, what is the current situation with democracy and human rights in Ukraine? Do you see any progress in reforming democratic and anti-corruption institutions?

Ukraine is a democratic country with a very strong civil society. Ukrainians have set their own reform agenda and are well aware of what they need to improve.

Ukraine is actively working on judicial reform and the creation of effective anti-corruption institutions.

Your country is well on its way to joining the EU and is implementing these reforms at a pace that no one expected.

How is Canada working with Ukraine to hold Russia accountable for war crimes and violations of international law?

Like many other countries, Canada supports the Ukrainian "peace formula". Canada participates in every working group, including those on justice and accountability.

Canada has deployed personnel to Ukraine to support investigations into Russian war crimes. And we have provided $2 million to the International Criminal Court's trust fund to strengthen the courts' ability to investigate Russian sexual crimes, including those against children.

Canada is part of a group of countries convened by Ukraine that are working to establish a special tribunal for Russian war crimes.

If [Vladimir] Putin came to Canada, would he be arrested?

There is no doubt about it. If Putin suddenly finds himself in Canada, he will be arrested there.

Canada is cooperating with Ukraine to return Ukrainian children who have been occupied or deported to Russia. Can you tell us more about this?

Canada, along with Norway and Ukraine, is co-chairing a working group that is working to bring home Ukrainian prisoners of war, civilians, and children who have been forcibly deported or abducted. In October, we held a two-day meeting at the level of foreign ministers in Montreal, where we signed the Montreal Pledge on Cooperation to Facilitate the Return of Prisoners of War, Illegally Detained Civilians, and Forcibly Displaced Children. To date, 45 countries have signed this agreement.

We have focused on three areas. One of them is to obtain full and reliable information about the location of detainees (their place, legal status, and health condition). The second is the need to call on Russia to provide humane conditions of detention and stop torture. And the third is to create mechanisms for the safe return of Ukrainians to their homeland.

Canada is helping to create a database to track down all those illegally detained in Russia and the occupied territories of Ukraine. Secondly, we participate in a working group that monitors the fair and humane treatment of detainees. We are working to force the Russians to stop torturing and ill-treating Ukrainians in Russian captivity.

Another working group, which includes Canada, is related to the creation of mechanisms to ensure the return of Ukrainians from captivity on a regular basis. Many people have already returned to Ukraine through the mediation efforts of countries such as Qatar or the Vatican. We are looking into how we can help Ukraine from the diplomatic side.

If you had to name the strengths and weaknesses of Ukrainians, what would you say?

Ukrainian women are a huge force. Many people here consider themselves to be representatives of a society with traditional values, but Ukrainians often take on non-traditional roles. Women in your country are very proactive. And I think this is a strong point of Ukraine.

Secondly, I admire the way Ukraine honors its poets. Ukrainians treat them as real heroes of the nation. When I see soldiers reciting their poetry, I see it as a hidden tremendous strength of Ukrainians.

I am also amazed by what the prisoners of war tell me after they return: the greatest act of defiance for them was to sing Ukrainian songs in Russian captivity. Where in the world have you seen this?

I really love Ukrainian humor. Even in the darkest times, people always have a joke for you. I think it's a fantastic superpower that makes Ukrainians indestructible.

As for Ukraine's weaknesses, this question is very difficult to answer, I don't see any.

Many years ago, one could say that Ukrainians lacked unity. But everything changed after the full-scale invasion. This is a huge shift. And you did it yourself. No one helped you with this.

On the other hand, many people have left the country. And this is a big problem. But if every Ukrainian abroad supports the country financially and becomes its voice in the world, it can strengthen Ukraine. We need to work in a more organized way to turn this weakness into a strength.

I think Ukraine is finally unleashing this strength. Ukraine is very actively decolonizing itself, getting rid of its inferiority, and gaining confidence. Ukraine is slowly becoming a country known for its own merits—even in parts of the world where it has never been heard of before.